Present Your Papers! Sir, Ma'am

[ClassicalLib17]

Gentlemen, start your engines! We got a green flag!

[Father Tim Ward]

I am writing from Glendale, Arizona -- a suburb that borders Phoenix on the west. Glendale is famous as the home of the Arizona Cardinals football team and the Coyotes, Arizona's professional hockey team. We have approximately 250,000 people in Glendale alone. The Phoenix metro area has almost 4 million people. The "Valley of the Sun" has been "home" since the mid-'70's.

I was watching some folks in Aurora yesterday on WGN, which I get on cable. They had a big march there in Aurora. Oh, they talked about the stupidity of racism -- and they objected to all sorts of things that, if they had bothered to do any research at all, they would know are not true. But truth and facts have nothing to do with this. Nobody who is marching in the rest of the country seems to care about facts. And the lousy politicians who urge boycotting Arizona for untrue reasons just show how crooked they are. I have no patience for those who use lies to foster hatred -- or for those who are all too willing to jump on the bandwagon of hate. I am a liberal -- and I'm not ashamed to admit it. But I'm also grounded in the reality of the barrio.

There are a lot of vested business interests, of course, in maintaining the status quo. Illegals tend not to object to OSHA violations, and they won't complain about violations of labor laws. They are paid a pittance, thus driving down wages for workers and profits for profiteers. A recent study here showed that more than 40 out of 80 Valley businesses employ illegals. Truth be told, these employers would never agree to actually RESIDE in the barrio. The problems of
the barrio belong to someone else, but the benefits belong only to the wealthy. There are reasons that limousine liberals don't plant their mansions in the neighborhoods of the people whom they exploit.

I know. I live in the barrio. I have lived, on and off, in the barrio for decades. I live pretty much in the center of at least 100 square miles that are dominated almost completely by illegal immigrants. (I say that they are illegal because my Hispanic and illegal friends have estimated that over 80% of Mexican immigrants are illegal.) I live with police helicopters hovering overhead. I live with the running gun battles down my street (43rd Avenue, a major thoroughfare). The other day, I went to Staples after work to have some Mass liturgies printed, but Staples was closed because the bullets of one of these running gun battles had entered the pristine environs of the office supply store. The policeman told me to come back the next day. The police were also, of course, across the street at the Home Depot. Is no place sacred? A couple of months ago, a man who had been in a shoot out stumbled into my Walgreens up the street. And shortly after I returned to Arizona from Mundelein last summer, a body was found on the street behind my mobile home park.

This is the way it is, aqui en mi barrio. The Mexican Mafia and plain old Mexican con men and women are all over the place. And the proliferation of businesses and $40,000 pickup trucks has led some Hispanics to speculate that much of the
apparent prosperity of the illegals comes from the drug cartels. After all, why do the illegals seem to own so many businesses when our American-born chicanos can't get a leg up?

The problem has been worsening for more than a decade, although the illegal population in the Valley has increased 70% since 2000. About 15 years ago, I happened to go with my friend, Esteban, to a scary-looking bar called "The Bronco Bar."
We were looking for Norberto, Esteban's brother. When I entered the bar, I was of course called all sorts of foul names because I'm obviously American and I had stepped into Mexico. I tried to keep smiling, though, while I pretended not to know what they were saying. A week later, five people were killed in the bar. The Arizona Republic had a nice front page story about the killings. I learned from the article that the bar was a hangout for Mexican drug lords from Sinaloa.

Yesterday, a trooper was ambushed by illegal drug smugglers outside of Casa Grande. I forget how many rounds they fired at the officer -- but it was a lot of rounds. They've got some nasty fire power. They also had no problem shooting at the police helicopters who came to the rescue. The news reported that he was "on a dangerous stretch of road known for drug smuggling." And, of course, a few weeks ago a rancher was killed in Douglas down by the border. Bienvenido a Mexico! Before you know it, our judges will be lying in pools of blood on the streets of Phoenix... just like south of the border.

Of course, I know that those who haven't bothered to find out the facts about our new law probably don't care how many of us die down here. They don't care about the bullets that frequently fly through windows killing the babies of illegals and legal citizens alike. They don't care that the majority of the victims of illegal immigrants are brown. They don't care. They just want to march and look liberal. God bless them. Maybe there's a special place for them in the afterlife.

Officially, we have almost half a million illegals in Arizona. Unofficially, we probably have over a million right here in the Valley alone. Arizona is being threatened now with losing federal funds, though, because too few of us turned in our census forms. Gosh, I wonder why. Maybe it had something to do with illegals not wanting to provide information?

Bigots always say, "Some of my best friends are [fill in blank]." I can actually say, though, that MOST of my friends here in Arizona are Hispanic. My best Arizona friend is Eddie, a Hispanic American, who is like my own brother. A former friend, who shall remain nameless, warned me to never use his real name when I would pick him up at work -- since he was using someone else's name and SS # at work. I have been to a quincenera, a gay Mexican wedding reception (about 250 people, almost all of whom were straight Chicanos or Mexican immigrants, and I have presided at the wedding of Eddie's nephew. With the exception of the last three years, I have spent almost every Saturday night in a Mexican nightclub since 1993. I have had wonderful LEGAL Mexican immigrant neighbors and CRAPPY illegal neighbors. I have found a gun carelessly left under my car seat by a friend's gangster brother. I have gone out for beers with my friend, Mike, a Latino Phoenix cop. I have enjoyed home-made albondigas in the small apartment of a little old abuela. As I said, MOST of my friends out here are Hispanic American -- and some of my friends are illegal. And so I know that of which I write.

Many Chicanos/immigants are too afraid to speak up to defend the new law. They are afraid, because they don't want to be attacked or murdered by Mexican nationals. After all, they (and I) have to live here. And we're always finding bodies in the desert. Most probably did not die of thirst.

The argument is that illegals only do the jobs that Americans won't. Gosh, who USED to do the jobs for a living wage twenty or thirty years ago. Of course they took our jobs. Only a blithering idiot or a flat out liar would claim otherwise.

The argument is that "they only come here to work." That's true for some... but not for all. Unless you consider car theft and drug smuggling work. Arizona is the identity theft capitol of the country, the kidnapping capitol of the country, and the car-theft capitol of the country. We, along with three other sun-belt states sold so many over-priced homes to immigrants that we sank the entire country. The banks committed usury when loaning to illegals, creating an artificial increase in home prices. As prices went up, the banks continued and continued to loan to immigrants who could not afford their homes. Then the banks sold these loans to other banks, and bet that the immigrants would default... which of course they did. This is the result of uncontrolled immigration and uncontrolled banks. Arizona's problem, in case you haven't noticed, has become Waukegan's problem. So don't get snooty when we try to fix it.

But then I shouldn't complain. Those who support illegal immigration obviously don't care what I think. After all, they would say, if I don't like it, I should move. And they're probably right. I obviously don't have a right to be here. I am an American and an Arizonan. I have paid my taxes here, and I have done all the right law-abiding things. But that doesn't matter anymore. As the recent protests have shown, none of that matters. This country simply can't handle the truth. It is too arrogant, too dishonest, and too dumb.

[Blackdiamond]

Welcome aboard. How did you find us? Your writing reminds me of someone who's on this Forum. Oh, Classic---I watch that same show: "Gentlemen, start your engines". I love it.

[Father Tim Ward]

How did I discover this wonderful forum? I returned to Arizona after two short years up in Lake County. I had moved to Mundelein in 2007 to be near family, but I couldn't find steady work and, as I discovered, Lake County is one of the most expensive places I could have moved to. Although I didn't have much luck on the work front, I was still able to pastor a small independent Catholic parish in Waukegan in 2008 and part of 2009. We were located at First Congregational there on Grand at Martin Luther King. A friend of mine from the parish passed on the forum's link.

I lived in Mundelein, but I really enjoyed Waukegan. Still, Arizona has been home for more than three decades... and I love it here. The gunfire is sporadic, not constant. I haven't been it yet. The heat is pretty dry, usually. The streets are straight and logical, and I know the neighborhoods like the back of my hand. The people here are libertarian "live and let live" types. Which is ironic, given our reputation for just the opposite.

The reason that illegal immigrants have ignored the border altogether and settled in Arizona is that we have historically been so welcoming, so accepting -- to EVERYONE. Many years ago, a friend from Pennsylvania told me that Phoenix absolutely amazed him. He had noticed white, black and Hispanic kids playing in the street in front of his house -- and he told me that he would never see such a mixed group playing together where he came from in Pennsylvania. I have always been very proud of our diversity and openness down here. I hate to think that people are driving a wedge between us now.

Regarding the immigrants themselves, it is natural for people to move from utter poverty to areas that provide some opportunity until there is no opportunity left. If the rate of immigration increases at the present rate, Arizona will be dominated by illiterate non-English speaking immigrants in just a few years. Arizona will, in every major way, actually become Mexico. We already have little in the way of jobs, a huge deficit, and a massive crime problem -- much of which is due to our appeal to immigrants. We have reached the breaking point... and every right wing and left wing yahoo is coming out of the woodwork to spread hatred.

I am a liberal and a Democrat, but I want to be fair about our Governor. I feel bad for her. Her voice was shaking when she announced that she had signed this legislation and that profiling would under no circumstances be permitted. I'm sure she knew that it was political death for her. I'm sure that she knew that she'd be ridiculed around the country, and that cities and States would boycott us for no good reason. Do you know how much courage that must take? God bless her

Rev. Sharpton is coming to Arizona. He has been very critical of us. I hope and pray that, when the law is explained to him, and he sees that we are not racists, that he will change his mind and speak up for us. We don't deserve to be boycotted. We're hurting plenty as it is.

[Blackdiamond]

Thank you for your kind response. I'm having a hard time trying to figure this whole (discovery) thing out. So a brown person is driving along the road and passes a cop--now will the cop stop him for having a faulty light and then be able to ask for "papers"?, or when the cop sees that its a " brown person" driving, and that's why he's stopped :?: If that's the case, a lot of Black Americans are going to be stopped because we have a multitude of different complexions--what about bi-racial folks? Are you speaking for yourself or for Catholics? Don't worry about Sharpton, he shows up whenever he thinks he can get on T.V. Turn the cameras off and he'll leave. :lol: What :!: Jesse Jackson's not coming? :o There must be something going on somewhere else and he'll also have an opportunity to get on t.v. Feel free to correct me. Its just that I don't understand the whole damn thing.

[Father Tim Ward]

Hola again! Although I must confess to not having read the legislation, I have heard law professors from ASU on our local PBS station talk about the law and actually read passages from it. I have also heard the individual who will be responsible for training police officers on the new law.

My understanding of the law is this: The officer must have a legally reasonable suspicion of a person's involvement in a crime in order to stop the person (just as is always the case in order to avoid even the appearance of profiling). At that point, the officer must determine from a list of criteria whether that person is likely to be an alien. The criteria would include such things as a license plate from, say Sonora and the individual's ability to speak English. Clothing that would be considered "Mexican" would also be an indicator, but would never be enough on its own. Color of skin must not play any part in the stopping or questioning of the individual. If the person is believed to have been involved in a crime AND gives evidence of being a foreigner, such as explained above, the officer may then ask the individual whether the individual is an American citizen. If the individual says "Yes," the officer may ask where he was born. If the individual says, for example, "Chicago," the questioning must stop. If the individual admits to not being from this country, however, the officer may require that he produce his papers -- which every alien is to carry on his/her person at all times anyway.

Governor Brewer was adamant about not profiling. And, if I'm not mistaken, profiling is a civil rights violation of federal law. Am I wrong? My guess is that any American citizen who is the victim of profiling will likely be very rich one day at the taxpayers' expense -- which is as it should be.

The news today reported that Sharpton will be in town tomorrow. He will take part in a prayer vigil, and then he will be in a march. They did not report that he has any plans to speak with the Governor. Perhaps he doesn't really care what this law is all about.

Something struck me today, and I hate to think that it may well be the truth: The people who suffer most because of the flood of illegal illiterate immigrants are poor brown, black and white folks ... and this may be an intentional effort on the part of the powers-that-be to keep the poor down. After all, who would be working those jobs in the absence of frightened, subservient immigrants? Poor Americans would be working those jobs, and they would at least have an opportunity to get ahead. As long as even the lowest jobs go to these immigrants, however, poor Americans don't have a chance.

Regarding my speaking for the "Catholics," I need to make it clear that I speak only for myself. However, my Catholic jurisdiction is not "under the Pope." We are NOT Roman Catholics. My former jurisdiction, the Independent Catholic Church of the West, was just completely absorbed by the United Catholic Church. We are, as a rule, former Roman Catholics who abhor the Roman Catholic Church's practices, politics, exclusion of gays, excommunication of those who divorce and remarry, and treatment of women. People in our church may continue their pious practices (such as praying the rosary and veneration, but not worship, of saints); however, we do not emphasize those practices. Our emphasis is on the Gospels, the reported teachings of Jesus himself. Many of our clergy were actually ordained in the Roman Catholic Church -- but we've also ordained many women to the priesthood, and the presiding bishop of the United Catholic Church is a woman. We don't own buildings; we simply rent from other churches. As far as I know, none of our pastors have ever been paid; we all work normal jobs. Some of our pastors, however, work as chaplains in police departments, colleges, hospitals and hospices -- and they, of course, are paid by whatever entity employs them.

In my own background is a few years of religious formation in a Roman Catholic religious order of teaching brothers ("male nuns," as I explain it to people). This religious formation, along with additional courses in my new church, led to my ordination as a priest.

Thanks for asking!

[Danno]

Hola again! Although I must confess to not having read the legislation, I have heard law professors from ASU on our local PBS station talk about the law and actually read passages from it. I have also heard the individual who will be responsible for training police officers on the new law.

My understanding of the law is this: The officer must have a legally reasonable suspicion of a person's involvement in a crime in order to stop the person (just as is always the case in order to avoid even the appearance of profiling). At that point, the officer must determine from a list of criteria whether that person is likely to be an alien. The criteria would include such things as a license plate from, say Sonora and the individual's ability to speak English. Clothing that would be considered "Mexican" would also be an indicator, but would never be enough on its own. Color of skin must not play any part in the stopping or questioning of the individual. If the person is believed to have been involved in a crime AND gives evidence of being a foreigner, such as explained above, the officer may then ask the individual whether the individual is an American citizen. If the individual says "Yes," the officer may ask where he was born. If the individual says, for example, "Chicago," the questioning must stop. If the individual admits to not being from this country, however, the officer may require that he produce his papers -- which every alien is to carry on his/her person at all times anyway.

Governor Brewer was adamant about not profiling. And, if I'm not mistaken, profiling is a civil rights violation of federal law. Am I wrong? My guess is that any American citizen who is the victim of profiling will likely be very rich one day at the taxpayers' expense -- which is as it should be.

The news today reported that Sharpton will be in town tomorrow. He will take part in a prayer vigil, and then he will be in a march. They did not report that he has any plans to speak with the Governor. Perhaps he doesn't really care what this law is all about.

Something struck me today, and I hate to think that it may well be the truth: The people who suffer most because of the flood of illegal illiterate immigrants are poor brown, black and white folks ... and this may be an intentional effort on the part of the powers-that-be to keep the poor down. After all, who would be working those jobs in the absence of frightened, subservient immigrants? Poor Americans would be working those jobs, and they would at least have an opportunity to get ahead. As long as even the lowest jobs go to these immigrants, however, poor Americans don't have a chance.

Regarding my speaking for the "Catholics," I need to make it clear that I speak only for myself. However, my Catholic jurisdiction is not "under the Pope." We are NOT Roman Catholics. My former jurisdiction, the Independent Catholic Church of the West, was just completely absorbed by the United Catholic Church. We are, as a rule, former Roman Catholics who abhor the Roman Catholic Church's practices, politics, exclusion of gays, excommunication of those who divorce and remarry, and treatment of women. People in our church may continue their pious practices (such as praying the rosary and veneration, but not worship, of saints); however, we do not emphasize those practices. Our emphasis is on the Gospels, the reported teachings of Jesus himself. Many of our clergy were actually ordained in the Roman Catholic Church -- but we've also ordained many women to the priesthood, and the presiding bishop of the United Catholic Church is a woman. We don't own buildings; we simply rent from other churches. As far as I know, none of our pastors have ever been paid; we all work normal jobs. Some of our pastors, however, work as chaplains in police departments, colleges, hospitals and hospices -- and they, of course, are paid by whatever entity employs them.

In my own background is a few years of religious formation in a Roman Catholic religious order of teaching brothers ("male nuns," as I explain it to people). This religious formation, along with additional courses in my new church, led to my ordination as a priest.

Thanks for asking!

I offer this brief opinion. Reasonable suspicion is nothing new. In order to detain and question a person walking down the street a policeman needs to establish a reasonable suspicion that the person is violating the law in some way. It is a law that is designed to keep us from having a "police state". Reasonable suspicion may work in a society which is not corrupt but we are a corrupt society. Reasonable suspicion is inherently vague. The courts have tried to define "reasonable suspicion" but it remains one of the most abused provisions of law that undermine civil rights. It is very easy to invent "reasonable suspicion" out of nothing. I know, it is done all the time. Any opportunity for abuse will be taken... our corrupt society guarantees it.

When our civil right are at stake we all need to realize the importance in protecting those rights most fervently when they are being taken from those we disagree with. If everyone protected only the rights of those we agree with there soon would be no rights for anyone. The Pastor Niemuller statement from post WWII illustrates that point very well.

[Father Tim Ward]

Ah, my old friend Dan! God bless you, Dan. Well, it seems as though we are between a rock and a hard place. We're darned if we do and darned if we don't. Wonderful, isn't it, how the good law-abiding people always get it from both ends?

[Blackdiamond]

Danno, that was beautiful!

[gmg77]

Regarding my speaking for the "Catholics," I need to make it clear that I speak only for myself. However, my Catholic jurisdiction is not "under the Pope." We are NOT Roman Catholics. My former jurisdiction, the Independent Catholic Church of the West, was just completely absorbed by the United Catholic Church. We are, as a rule, former Roman Catholics who abhor the Roman Catholic Church's practices, politics, exclusion of gays, excommunication of those who divorce and remarry, and treatment of women.

I was raised Roman Catholic and not familiar with your church, but would Jesus care what nation someone has citizenship in? Would he ordain removing family members for arrest/deportation strictly on immigration status? It seems to me my idea of Jesus was to condemn the employers and business owners preying on cheap labor rather than the poor immigrant workers. Seems you church agrees LINK

I don't live in Arizona so I don't know what the reality on the ground is, but most cops I know dont want this added responsibility, that includes border county sheriffs In Pina and Santa Cruz county. Seems like they would have a better sense of the ground conditions than the media darlings Arpaio and Babeu in Phoenix area. Police know its in there best interest not to intimidate and lose trust of those they are trying to protect and serve. Otherwise crime goes unreported and leads aren't given so the bad guys get away.