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+--- Thread: "FIRST THEY CAME AFTER....." (/showthread.php?tid=927)
Re: "FIRST THEY CAME AFTER....." - Dennis_Ista - 05-05-2010
The root of it all is that Mexico is a poor nation, and that the US is very wealthy and offer many oppertunities for a better life.
So they come in hope for a better future, and a better life.
Maybe if the US would assist Mexico in changing the standard of life for it's citizens, the illegals might come.
ClassicalLib, I am not trying to hide any facts. The rule states that if two foreign nationals, when the female gives birth, it would not automatically become a Dutch child, even when it is born on Dutch soil.
So if you and yer wife would come here, and yer wife gives birth to a child, it would still get US citizenship, although it was born on Dutch soil.
Unless the parents are opting for Dutch Nationality, and the child is registered and send to a Dutch school, then it would get Ducth citizenship, but only if the process for the parents is accepted. If not, the child would get the nationality of the parents from where they came from.
Wikipedia is a great source but it DOES NOT COVER all the bases.
Re: "FIRST THEY CAME AFTER....." - Danno - 05-05-2010
Dennis_Ista Wrote:The root of it all is that Mexico is a poor nation, and that the US is very wealthy and offer many oppertunities for a better life.Yes, I'd agree that is going in the right direction but the roots go deeper than that.
So they come in hope for a better future, and a better life.
Maybe if the US would assist Mexico in changing the standard of life for it's citizens, the illegals might come.
The following is quite lengthy but if you have not read it before please do take the time to read it. It does address the root causes of these problems. I find it fascinating.
This is from the Zeitgeist Movement website.
We intend to restore the fundamental necessities and environmental awareness of the species through the advocation of the most current understandings of who and what we truly are, coupled with how science, nature and technology (rather than religion, politics and money) hold the keys to our personal growth, not only as individual human beings, but as a civilization, both structurally and spiritually. The central insights of this awareness is the recognition of the Emergent and Symbiotic elements of natural law and how aligning with these understandings as the bedrock of our personal and social institutions, life on earth can and will flourish into a system which will continuously grow in a positive way, where negative social consequences, such as social stratification, war, biases, elitism and criminal activity will be constantly reduced and, idealistically, eventually become nonexistent within the spectrum of human behavior itself.
This possibility is, of course, very difficult for most humans to consider, for we have been conditioned by society to think that crime, corruption and dishonesty is "the way it is" and that there will always be people who want to abuse, hurt and take advantage of others. Religion is the largest promoter of this propaganda, for the "us and them" or "good and evil" mentality promotes this false assumption.
The reality is that we live in a society that produces Scarcity. The consequence of this scarcity is that human beings must behave in self preserving ways, even if it means they have to cheat and steal in order to get what they want. Our research has concluded that Scarcity is one of the most fundamental causes of aberrant human behavior, while also leading to complex forms of neurosis in other ways. A statistical look at drug addiction, crime and incarceration statistics, finds that poverty and unhealthy social conditions comprise the life experience of those who engage in such behavior.
Human beings are not good or bad... they are running, forever changing compositions of the life experience(s) that influences them. The "quality" of a human being ( if there was such a thing ) is directly related to the upbringing and thus belief systems they have been conditioned into.
This simple reality has been grossly overlooked and today people primitively think that competition, greed and corruption are "hardwired" elements of human behavior and, in turn, we must have prisons, police and hence a hierarchy of differential control in order for society to deal with these "tendencies". This is totally illogical and false.
The bottom line is that in order to change things for the better fundamentally, you must begin to address root causes. Our current society's system of "punishment" is outmoded, inhumane, and unproductive. When a serial killer is caught, most people jump up and down and scream for the death of that person. This is backwards. A truly sane society, which understands what we are and how our value systems are created, would take the individual and learn the reasons behind his or her violent actions. This information would then go to a research department which considers how to stop such conditions from occurring through education.
It is time to stop the patchwork. It is time to begin a new social approach which is updated to present day knowledge. Sadly, society today is still largely based on outmoded, superstitious dispositions and resolutions.
It is also important to point out that there are no utopias or endings. All evidence points to perpetual change on all levels. In turn, it is our personal actions everyday of our lives that mold and perpetuate the social systems we have in place. Yet, paradoxically, it is also our environmental influences which create our perspectives and hence world views. Therefore, true change will come not only from adjusting your personal understandings and decisions, but equally from changing the social structures that influence these understandings and decisions.
The elite power systems are little affected in the long run by traditional protest and political movements. We must move beyond these 'establishment rebellions' and work with a tool much more powerful:
We will stop supporting the system, while constantly advocating knowledge, peace, unity and compassion. We cannot "fight the system". Hate, anger and the 'war' mentality are failed means for change, for they perpetuate the same tools the corrupt, established power systems use to maintain control to begin with.
The Distortion and Paralysis:
When we understand that all systems are Emergent and constantly in a state of evolution, along with the reality that we are all Symbiotically connected to nature and each other in the most simple yet profound ways, forcing the realization that our personal integrity is only as high as the integrity of the rest of society, we then see how twisted and backwards our social establishments are and how their perpetuation is largely the cause of the social instability in society. For example, the Monetary System has been long deemed a positive force in society due to its claim to produce incentive and progress. In actuality, the monetary system has become a vehicle for division and totalitarian control.
It is the ultimate form of "Divide and Conquer" for at its very core are the assumptions that
(1) We must fight each other in order to survive.
(2) Humans must have this reward "Incentive" to do anything meaningful.
As far as Number 1 (We must fight each other in order to survive.), this characteristic of 'competition' in the system guarantees corruption in society on every level, for the basis is "us against them". Many argue that the "free market system" is good... but it is corrupt in the modern day due to bad policies, favoritism, bailouts, etc. They assume that if a "pure" free market was allowed to flourish then it would be okay. This is false, for what you are seeing today IS the Free market at work, with all its differential advantage and corruption. No laws will ever stop the insider trading, collusion, monopoly, labor abuse, pollution, planned obsolescence or the like... this is what the competition based system produces without fail, for it is based on the premise of taking advantage of others for profit.
We must begin to transition out of these oppressive ideals and move towards a system which is "designed" to support human beings... not force them to fight in order to survive. As far as Number 2, (Humans must have this reward "Incentive" to do anything meaningful.) this is just a sad and an incredibly negative perspective of the human being in general. To assume that a person must be "structurally motivated" or hence "forced" into doing anything, is just absurd. Think back to when you were a child and had no idea what money even was. You played, were curious and did many things... why? Because you wanted to. However, as time goes on in our system, that natural curiosity and self-motivation is stripped away from people, as they are forced to conform to the specialized, compartmentalized, nearly predefined labor system in order to survive. This, in turn, often creates a natural rebellion within the person due to the forced obligation, and this is how we came up with "leisure" and "work" separations. The laziness assumed to exist by the monetary system proponents (who claim it produces incentive) do not recognize this. In a true society, people would follow their natural inclinations and work to contribute to society not because they are "paid" for it, but because they have a greater awareness which recognizes that contributing to society helps them just as much as everyone else. This is the heightened state of awareness we hope to communicate. Your reward for contributing to society is the well being of that society... which, in turn, furthers your well being.
Now, putting things into perspective, it is important to understand that our world is currently run, undeniably, by a small group of dominant men in high positions of those institutions which are most dominant in society- Business and Finance. The establishment of government is in tandem with the influence and power of corporations and banks. The life blood is money, which is, in fact, an illusion that now has little relevance to society and serves as a tool for manipulation and division along a kind of social organization that guarantees elitism, crime, war and social stratification.
Simultaneously, individuals are taught that being "correct" is what creates their value as human beings. This state of being "correct" is directly related to the prevailing values of society itself. Therefore, those who accept and support the social system's views are considered "normal", while those who disagree are considered "abnormal" or even "subversive". Whether it is the dogma of a unique social tradition, or the alignment with a worldwide establishment religion, the basis is the same: Intellectual Materialism.
As we realize that knowledge and hence our institutions are always evolving, we see that any belief system which claims to "know" anything, without allowing for dispute, is a failed perspective. Religion, with its foundation in faith, is the king of this distortion, as it claims to know something definitively about the most complex and elusive origins of human kind, and this simply is not possible in an emergent universe.
That being said, it is then realized that equally as dangerous as the Establishment Power Structures, are the people who have been conditioned to completely accept the static understandings put forth by these systems... therefore becoming: "Self Appointed Guardians of the Status Quo". This applies to every system, especially political, financial and religious systems. Since people's identities become associated with the doctrines of a Country, Religion or Business ethic, it often becomes very difficult for a person to change, for his or her identity has become combined with the ideologies which have been imposed upon them.
Therefore, they perpetuate the doctrine of the institution, simply to maintain their personal integrity, as they see it.
We must break this cycle, for it paralyzes our growth not only as individuals, but as a society.
The Truth and Transition
Once we understand that the integrity of our personal existences are directly related to the integrity of the earth, life and all other human beings, we then have our path predefined for us. In turn, once we realize that it is science, technology and hence human creativity which creates progress in our lives, we are then able to recognize what our true priorities are for social and personal growth and progress. These points denoted, we can then see that Religion, Politics and the Money/Competition based Labor system are outdated modes of social operation, which must now be addressed and outgrown. Our avocation is to achieve a social system which operates without money or politics, while allowing superstition to work itself out as education flourishes. It isn't the right of any person to tell another what to believe, for no human has a full understanding of anything. However, if we pay attention to the natural processes of life, we then see how we can align with nature and thus our path becomes more clear.
For example, many people are worried about population growth on the planet, while very spooky comments by despotic figures like Henry Kissinger claim that some kind of "reduction" is needed. This is, of course, very scary. However, the real question remains: Is population growth really that bad? The answer is that from a scientific perspective the earth can handle many, many times more people if need be, once high technology is harnessed. 70% of our planet is water and cities in the sea ( one of many projects by Jacque Fresco ) are the next step. In turn, education about life operations will inform people as to the ramifications of their reproductive interests and population growth will naturally slow as people begin to realize how they are related to the planet and its carrying capacity.
In fact, the only true "government" that can possibly exist is the earth and its resources. From there, all possibilities can be assessed. This is why an intellectual unification of all countries is needed, for the most important information we as a species can have is a full, highly detailed assessment of what we have on this planet. Just as you would examine the land and resources of an acre of land to see what you could do or grow on it, this is what needs to happen with the planet in order to optimize what we are capable of as a species, resource wise.
Of course, many who consider the ideas presented above will often ask: "How can we do this considering the distorted value systems which are currently in operation.? How do we make such a move or transition?" This is, of course, the most difficult question. The answer: We have to start somewhere. There are many things that can be done by a single person or community that can begin to shape this vision. The most important step is education.
Re: "FIRST THEY CAME AFTER....." - WT Reader - 05-06-2010
Hey Dennis and Danno ...
Dennis, I agree with what you say as to the causes of illegal immigration into the USA from Latin American countries. To help Latin America should be a high priority for the USA vs spending more billions of dollars every month fighting useless, costly war in Afghanistan and still some in Iraq.
Let's think for a moment: We here in the USA are the United States of AMERICA. Our Canadian neighbors are in North AMERICA. And our Mexican and Latin countries are in South AMERICA.
Deal is, we are ALL AMERICANS!! It is right here in front of our noses! We are neighbors, we live upon the same great, huge, rich and abundant continent...A M E R I C A. Sooo being ALL AMERICANS, let us strive to work together rather than against one another as AMERICANS.
Danno, this is much of the theme in the writing you posted above from the Zeitgeist Movement website. We all live upon the same continent,
the SAME EARTH, with all is abundance and resource. Turns out, we humans are so much alike than we are different!
We all have the SAME mutual needs to breathe air, to eat, to see, to hear, to move, to sleep, to be sheltered from the storm, to have income to maintain our lives ... key is to embrace our common humanity on this same continent and EARTH and honor our differences in the form of various cultures, folkways and traditions.
To be realistic, there are a few very "bad actors" in our human race, so we must provide reasonable protection of the many from [i]these few/i]. Nevertheless, we still have so much more in common with each other than we have differences.
Like the popular song says written by Harold Arlen and lyrics by Johnny Mercer nearing the end of World War Two in 1944, frequently recorded by
Bing Crosby with The Andrew Sisters... "Ac-Cent-Tchu-Ate the Positive!"
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cgVRwITAfY">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cgVRwITAfY</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z45EB4TiYz4">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z45EB4TiYz4</a><!-- m -->
(Bing Crosy and Bette Middler)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IP9h40z0sk&feature=related">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IP9h40z ... re=related</a><!-- m -->
(Aretha Franklin is stellar in performing this work, too!)
-- WT Reader
Re: "FIRST THEY CAME AFTER....." - Danno - 05-06-2010
WT Reader Wrote:Hey Dennis and Danno ...Nice post WT. The possibilities for the human race are unfathomable if we could just cast aside all of the crap we have been brainwashed to believe is true and grow up.
Dennis, I agree with what you say as to the causes of illegal immigration into the USA from Latin American countries. To help Latin America should be a high priority for the USA vs spending more billions of dollars every month fighting useless, costly war in Afghanistan and still some in Iraq.
Let's think for a moment: We here in the USA are the United States of AMERICA. Our Canadian neighbors are in North AMERICA. And our Mexican and Latin countries are in South AMERICA.
Deal is, we are ALL AMERICANS!! It is right here in front of our noses! We are neighbors, we live upon the same great, huge, rich and abundant continent...A M E R I C A. Sooo being ALL AMERICANS, let us strive to work together rather than against one another as AMERICANS.
Danno, this is much of the theme in the writing you posted above from the Zeitgeist Movement website. We all live upon the same continent,
the SAME EARTH, with all is abundance and resource. Turns out, we humans are so much alike than we are different!
We all have the SAME mutual needs to breathe air, to eat, to see, to hear, to move, to sleep, to be sheltered from the storm, to have income to maintain our lives ... key is to embrace our common humanity on this same continent and EARTH and honor our differences in the form of various cultures, folkways and traditions.
To be realistic, there are a few very "bad actors" in our human race, so we must provide reasonable protection of the many from [i]these few/i]. Nevertheless, we still have so much more in common with each other than we have differences.
Like the popular song says written by Harold Arlen and lyrics by Johnny Mercer nearing the end of World War Two in 1944, frequently recorded by
Bing Crosby with The Andrew Sisters... "Ac-Cent-Tchu-Ate the Positive!"
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cgVRwITAfY">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cgVRwITAfY</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z45EB4TiYz4">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z45EB4TiYz4</a><!-- m -->
(Bing Crosy and Bette Middler)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IP9h40z0sk&feature=related">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IP9h40z ... re=related</a><!-- m -->
(Aretha Franklin is stellar in performing this work, too!)
-- WT Reader
Re: "FIRST THEY CAME AFTER....." - WT Reader - 05-07-2010
Danno Wrote:WT Reader Wrote:Hey Dennis and Danno ...Nice post WT. The possibilities for the human race are unfathomable if we could just cast aside all of the crap we have been brainwashed to believe is true and grow up.
Dennis, I agree with what you say as to the causes of illegal immigration into the USA from Latin American countries. To help Latin America should be a high priority for the USA vs spending more billions of dollars every month fighting useless, costly war in Afghanistan and still some in Iraq.
Let's think for a moment: We here in the USA are the United States of AMERICA. Our Canadian neighbors are in North AMERICA. And our Mexican and Latin countries are in South AMERICA.
Deal is, we are ALL AMERICANS!! It is right here in front of our noses! We are neighbors, we live upon the same great, huge, rich and abundant continent...A M E R I C A. Sooo being ALL AMERICANS, let us strive to work together rather than against one another as AMERICANS.
Danno, this is much of the theme in the writing you posted above from the Zeitgeist Movement website. We all live upon the same continent,
the SAME EARTH, with all is abundance and resource. Turns out, we humans are so much alike than we are different!
We all have the SAME mutual needs to breathe air, to eat, to see, to hear, to move, to sleep, to be sheltered from the storm, to have income to maintain our lives ... key is to embrace our common humanity on this same continent and EARTH and honor our differences in the form of various cultures, folkways and traditions.
To be realistic, there are a few very "bad actors" in our human race, so we must provide reasonable protection of the many from [i]these few/i]. Nevertheless, we still have so much more in common with each other than we have differences.
Like the popular song says written by Harold Arlen and lyrics by Johnny Mercer nearing the end of World War Two in 1944, frequently recorded by
Bing Crosby with The Andrew Sisters... "Ac-Cent-Tchu-Ate the Positive!"
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cgVRwITAfY">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cgVRwITAfY</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z45EB4TiYz4">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z45EB4TiYz4</a><!-- m -->
(Bing Crosy and Bette Middler)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IP9h40z0sk&feature=related">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IP9h40z ... re=related</a><!-- m -->
(Aretha Franklin is stellar in performing this work, too!)
-- WT Reader
Thanx, Danno!
We agree again, BRAVO !
-- W Reader